diff --git a/CHANGELOG.md b/CHANGELOG.md
index 5e0cda4ed..6efcd1ede 100644
--- a/CHANGELOG.md
+++ b/CHANGELOG.md
@@ -1,5 +1,8 @@
 ## {{ UNRELEASED_VERSION }} - [{{ UNRELEASED_DATE }}]({{ UNRELEASED_LINK }})
 
+* Added `pre-` and `post-` as syntactical sugar for `L337` service `group` override syntax
+* Fixed bug causing `v4` services to be unnecessarily rebuilt on non-rebuildy commands eg `lando start`
+
 ## v3.24.0-beta.12 - [January 24, 2025](https://github.com/lando/core/releases/tag/v3.24.0-beta.12)
 
 * Merged in improvements from `@lando/core@v3.23.26`
diff --git a/components/l337-v4.js b/components/l337-v4.js
index 9820db680..f03c66e2f 100644
--- a/components/l337-v4.js
+++ b/components/l337-v4.js
@@ -27,6 +27,7 @@ const toPosixPath = require('../utils/to-posix-path');
 class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
   #app
   #data
+  #dgroups
   #lando
 
   static debug = require('debug')('@lando/l337-service-v4');
@@ -49,13 +50,15 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
       groups: {
         context: {
           description: 'A group for adding and copying sources to the image',
-          weight: 0,
+          stage: 'image',
           user: 'root',
+          weight: 0,
         },
         default: {
           description: 'A default general purpose build group around which other groups can be added',
-          weight: 1000,
+          stage: 'image',
           user: 'root',
+          weight: 1000,
         },
       },
       image: undefined,
@@ -69,7 +72,6 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
       },
       sources: [],
       stages: {
-        default: 'image',
         image: 'Instructions to help generate an image',
       },
       states: {
@@ -151,9 +153,11 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
     fs.mkdirSync(this.tmpdir, {recursive: true});
 
     // initialize our private data
+    // note that you cannot override the default|context groups
     this.#app = app;
+    this.#dgroups = {groups: this.#init().groups ?? {}};
     this.#lando = lando;
-    this.#data = merge(this.#init(), {groups}, {stages}, {states}, {volumes: Object.keys(tlvolumes)});
+    this.#data = merge(this.#init(), {groups}, {stages}, {states}, {volumes: Object.keys(tlvolumes)}, this.#dgroups);
 
     // rework info based on whatever is passed in
     this.info = merge({}, {state: states}, {primary, service: id, type}, info);
@@ -191,6 +195,11 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
       // debug
       this.debug('%o autoset appmount to %o, did not select %o', this.id, this.appMount, appMounts);
     }
+
+    // if the image is already built then lets set the tag and stuff here
+    if (this.info?.state?.IMAGE === 'BUILT' && this.tag) {
+      this.addComposeData({services: {[this.id]: {image: this.tag}}});
+    }
   }
 
   // passed in build args that can be used
@@ -346,11 +355,11 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
         }
 
         // merge in
-        this.#data.groups = merge({}, this.#data.groups, {[group.id || group.name]: {
-          description: group.description || `Build group: ${group.id || group.name}`,
-          weight: group.weight || this.#data.groups.default.weight || 1000,
-          stage: group.stage || this.#data.stages.default || 'image',
-          user: group.user || 'root',
+        this.#data.groups = merge({}, this.#data.groups, {[group.id ?? group.name]: {
+          description: group.description ?? `Build group: ${group.id ?? group.name}`,
+          weight: group.weight ?? this.#data.groups.default.weight ?? 1000,
+          stage: group.stage ?? this.#data.groups.default.stage ?? 'image',
+          user: group.user ?? this.#data.groups.default.user ?? 'root',
         }});
 
         this.debug('%o added build group %o', this.id, group);
@@ -361,12 +370,14 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
   // this handles our changes to docker-composes "image" key
   // @TODO: helper methods to add particular parts of build data eg image, files, steps, groups, etc
   addImageData(data) {
-    // make sure data is in object format if its a string then we assume it sets the "imagefile" value
-    if (typeof data === 'string') data = {imagefile: data};
+    // make sure data is in object format if its stringy then we assume it sets the "imagefile" value
+    if (typeof data === 'string' || data?.constructor?.name === 'ImportString') data = {imagefile: data};
     // map dockerfile key to image key if it is set and imagefile isnt
     if (!data.imagefile && data.dockerfile) data.imagefile = data.dockerfile;
+
     // now pass the imagefile stuff into image parsing
     this.setBaseImage(data.imagefile);
+
     // if the imageInstructions include COPY/ADD then make sure we are adding the dockerfile context directly as a
     // source so those instructions work
     // @NOTE: we are not adding a "context" because if this passes we have the instructions already and just need to make
@@ -436,11 +447,12 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
 
         // we should have stnadardized groups at this point so we can rebase on defaults as
         step = merge({},
-          {stage: this.#data.stages.default},
+          {stage: this.#data.groups.default.stage},
           {weight: this.#data.groups.default.weight, user: this.#data.groups.default.user},
           this.#data.groups[step.group],
           step,
         );
+
         // now lets modify the weight by the offset if we have one
         if (step.offset && Number(step.offset)) step.weight = step.weight + step.offset;
         // and finally lets rewrite the group for better instruction grouping
@@ -539,6 +551,7 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
       // add the final compose data with the updated image tag on success
       // @NOTE: ideally its sufficient for this to happen ONLY here but in v3 its not
       this.addComposeData({services: {[context.id]: {image: context.tag}}});
+
       // set the image stuff into the info
       this.info = {image: imagefile, state: {IMAGE: 'BUILT'}, tag: context.tag};
       this.debug('image %o built successfully from %o', context.id, imagefile);
@@ -662,10 +675,14 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
 
   // gets group overrides or returns false if there are none
   getGroupOverrides(group) {
-    // break the group into parts
-    const parts = group.replace(`${this.getOverrideGroup(group)}`, '').split('-');
-    // there will always be a leading '' element so dump it
-    parts.shift();
+    // break the group into parts and remove empty strings
+    const parts = group.replace(`${this.getOverrideGroup(group)}`, '').split('-').filter(part => part && part !== '');
+
+    // translate pre|post syntax
+    if (['pre', 'post'].includes(parts[0])) {
+      parts[0] = parts[0] === 'pre' ? 'before' : 'after';
+      if (parts.length === 1) parts.push('1');
+    }
 
     // if we have nothing then lets return false at this point
     if (parts.length === 0) return false;
@@ -697,7 +714,7 @@ class L337ServiceV4 extends EventEmitter {
     // this should ensure we end up with an ordered by closest match list
     const candidates = Object.keys(this.#data.groups)
       .sort((a, b) => b.length - a.length)
-      .filter(group => data.startsWith(group));
+      .filter(group => data.startsWith(group) || data.startsWith(`pre-${group}`) || data.startsWith(`post-${group}`));
 
     // if there is a closest match that is not the group itself then its an override otherwise fise
     return candidates.length > 0 && candidates[0] !== data ? candidates[0] : false;
diff --git a/docs/services/l337.md b/docs/services/l337.md
index 040271f4a..36b4da24d 100644
--- a/docs/services/l337.md
+++ b/docs/services/l337.md
@@ -513,7 +513,9 @@ While you _can_ use `COPY` and `ADD` instructions here we recommend you use [`co
 
 #### Override syntax
 
-The group override syntax is flexible as long as the parent group is first. For example the following overrides are equivalent:
+You can also override _any_ group with a `before|after`, `user` and `offset` to gain more flexible on _when_ and _who_ runs a given step. The group override syntax is flexible as long as the parent group is first.
+
+All the group overrides in the example below are equivalent. Any step using them will run as the `root` user at `+2` weight (eg after) to the weight provided by the `system` group.
 
 ```bash
 system-2
@@ -521,6 +523,15 @@ system-2-after
 system-root-after-2
 system-2-after-root
 system-root-2-after
+post-system-2
+```
+
+Similarly, all of the below run as the `nginx` user but at `-2` weight (eg before) to the `system` group.
+
+```bash
+system-2-before-nginx
+system-nginx-before-2
+pre-system-2-nginx
 ```
 
 That said, we like the `GROUP-OFFSET-DIRECTION-USER` format. ;)
diff --git a/examples/l337/.lando.yml b/examples/l337/.lando.yml
index 5561e5478..dd6d7f408 100644
--- a/examples/l337/.lando.yml
+++ b/examples/l337/.lando.yml
@@ -321,6 +321,14 @@ services:
         # direct group usage
         - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
           group: "val-jean"
+        - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
+          group: "pre-val-jean"
+        - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
+          group: "post-val-jean"
+        - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
+          group: "pre-val-jean-4"
+        - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
+          group: "post-val-jean-5"
         - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
           group: "user"
         - instructions: RUN echo "${LANDO_IMAGE_USER}-${LANDO_IMAGE_GROUP}-$(whoami)" >> /tmp/groups
@@ -398,6 +406,19 @@ services:
         - instructions: RUN echo "first" >> /stuff
           weight: 1
 
+  import:
+    api: 4
+    type: l337
+    image:
+      imagefile: !import Dockerfile
+      steps:
+        - instructions: !import instructions/Instructions1
+          weight: 1
+        - instructions: !import instructions/Instructions2
+          weight: 2
+        - instructions: !import instructions/Instructions3
+          weight: 3
+
 networks:
   my-network:
 volumes:
diff --git a/examples/l337/README.md b/examples/l337/README.md
index feae568b0..18f2b1d14 100644
--- a/examples/l337/README.md
+++ b/examples/l337/README.md
@@ -78,7 +78,7 @@ lando info --service image-5 | grep tag: | grep "lando/l337\-" | grep "\-image-5
 lando info --service image-6 | grep tag: | grep "lando/l337\-" | grep "\-image-6:latest"
 
 # should use web as the primary service for tooling and events
-lando ssh --command "env" | grep SERVICE | grep web
+lando exec web -- env | grep SERVICE | grep web
 lando env | grep SERVICE | grep web
 
 # should use the user as the default exec user
@@ -122,21 +122,21 @@ lando ssh --service image-3 --command "stat /file1"
 
 # should run in working_dir if appMount is not set
 lando pwd --service db | grep /tmp
-lando ssh --service db --command "pwd" | grep /tmp
+lando exec db -- pwd | grep /tmp
 cd folder
 lando pwd --service db | grep -w /tmp
-lando ssh --service db --command "pwd" | grep /tmp
+lando exec db -- pwd | grep /tmp
 cd ..
 
 # should run in image working_dir as fallback
 lando pwd --service image-1 | grep -w /
-lando ssh --service image-1 --command "pwd" | grep -w /
+lando exec image-1 -- pwd | grep -w /
 lando pwd --service image-6 | grep /usr/share/nginx/html
-lando ssh --service image-6 --command "pwd" | grep /usr/share/nginx/html
+lando exec image-6 -- pwd | grep /usr/share/nginx/html
 
 # should correctly mount read-only volumes
-lando ssh --command "test -r /file-ro"
-lando ssh --command "test -w /file-ro" || echo $? | grep 1
+lando exec web -- test -r /file-ro
+lando exec web -- test -w /file-ro || echo $? | grep 1
 
 # should handle all context options correctly
 lando stat /folder
@@ -178,12 +178,16 @@ lando groups | sed -n '11p' | grep root-default-1000-root-root
 lando groups | sed -n '12p' | grep root-default-1000-root-root
 lando groups | sed -n '13p' | grep nginx-user-10000-nginx-nginx
 lando groups | sed -n '14p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24591-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '15p' | grep root-val-jean-24601-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '16p' | grep root-val-jean-24603-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '17p' | grep root-val-jean-24604-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '18p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24605-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '19p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24606-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '20p' | grep root-val-jean-24701-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '15p' | grep root-val-jean-24597-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '16p' | grep root-val-jean-24600-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '17p' | grep root-val-jean-24601-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '18p' | grep root-val-jean-24602-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '19p' | grep root-val-jean-24603-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '20p' | grep root-val-jean-24604-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '21p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24605-nginx-nginx
+lando groups | sed -n '22p' | grep root-val-jean-24606-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '23p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24606-nginx-nginx
+lando groups | sed -n '24p' | grep root-val-jean-24701-root-root
 
 # should run build steps as the correct user
 lando groups | sed -n '1p' | grep root-default--99999999-root-root
@@ -200,25 +204,32 @@ lando groups | sed -n '11p' | grep root-default-1000-root-root
 lando groups | sed -n '12p' | grep root-default-1000-root-root
 lando groups | sed -n '13p' | grep nginx-user-10000-nginx-nginx
 lando groups | sed -n '14p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24591-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '15p' | grep root-val-jean-24601-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '16p' | grep root-val-jean-24603-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '17p' | grep root-val-jean-24604-root-root
-lando groups | sed -n '18p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24605-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '19p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24606-nginx-nginx
-lando groups | sed -n '20p' | grep root-val-jean-24701-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '15p' | grep root-val-jean-24597-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '16p' | grep root-val-jean-24600-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '17p' | grep root-val-jean-24601-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '18p' | grep root-val-jean-24602-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '19p' | grep root-val-jean-24603-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '20p' | grep root-val-jean-24604-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '21p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24605-nginx-nginx
+lando groups | sed -n '22p' | grep root-val-jean-24606-root-root
+lando groups | sed -n '23p' | grep nginx-val-jean-24606-nginx-nginx
+lando groups | sed -n '24p' | grep root-val-jean-24701-root-root
 
 # Should run steps in all allowed formats
 lando env --service steps-1 | grep VIBES | grep RISING
 lando env --service steps-1 | grep KIRK | grep wesley
 lando env --service steps-1 | grep SPOCK | grep peck
+lando env --service import | grep LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_1 | grep 1
+lando env --service import | grep LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_2 | grep 1
+lando env --service import | grep LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_3 | grep 1
 
 # Should run unknown groups as the default group
-lando ssh --service steps-1 --command "cat /tmp/val-jean-group" | grep default-1000-root
+lando exec steps-1 -- cat /tmp/val-jean-group | grep default-1000-root
 
 # Should order detached groups by weight
-lando ssh --service steps-1 --command "cat /stuff" | sed -n '1p' | grep first
-lando ssh --service steps-1 --command "cat /stuff" | sed -n '2p' | grep middle
-lando ssh --service steps-1 --command "cat /stuff" | sed -n '3p' | grep last
+lando exec steps-1 -- cat /stuff | sed -n '1p' | grep first
+lando exec steps-1 -- cat /stuff | sed -n '2p' | grep middle
+lando exec steps-1 -- cat /stuff | sed -n '3p' | grep last
 ```
 
 ## Destroy tests
diff --git a/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions1 b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions1
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..ce4afed36
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions1
@@ -0,0 +1,2 @@
+ENV MARIADB_ALLOW_EMPTY_ROOT_PASSWORD=1
+ENV LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_1=1
diff --git a/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions2 b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions2
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..505b0b34c
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions2
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+ENV LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_2=1
diff --git a/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions3 b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions3
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..f52130754
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/l337/instructions/Instructions3
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+ENV LANDO_STRINGY_IMPORT_INSTRUCTIONS_3=1
diff --git a/hooks/app-run-v4-build-image.js b/hooks/app-run-v4-build-image.js
index 83852b80d..75e9e036d 100644
--- a/hooks/app-run-v4-build-image.js
+++ b/hooks/app-run-v4-build-image.js
@@ -13,6 +13,7 @@ module.exports = async (app, lando) => {
   const services = _(app.v4.services)
     .filter(service => _.includes(buildV4Services, service.id))
     .filter(service => typeof service.buildImage === 'function')
+    .filter(service => service?.info?.state?.IMAGE !== 'BUILT')
     .value();
 
   app.log.debug('going to build v4 images', services.map(service => service.id));